Response to Glen E. Chatfield
Dear Mr. Chatfield,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comment and engage with my blog post. I appreciate your passion for theological discussion and your willingness to share your perspective. However, I believe there are some misunderstandings and misrepresentations of LDS doctrine in your rebuttal that I’d like to address thoughtfully and respectfully. My aim is not to provoke contention but to clarify what Latter-day Saints actually believe, examine the reasoning behind your critique, and foster a meaningful dialogue about God’s nature as revealed in scripture.
Clarifying LDS Doctrine on God and the Virgin Birth
Your comment asserts that LDS doctrine teaches that God the Father had physical relations with Mary, His supposed spirit daughter, to conceive Jesus, implying incest and adultery since Mary was espoused to Joseph.
It is claimed that Latter-day Saints believe Jesus was conceived through sexual intercourse between God the Father and Mary, and that Mary therefore was not a virgin when Jesus was born. It is also claimed that Latter-day Saints reject the "Evangelical belief" that "Christ was born of the virgin Mary, who, when the Holy Ghost came upon her, miraculously conceived the promised messiah."
Often used as evidence are a handful statements from early LDS leaders, such as Brigham Young, that directly or indirectly support this idea. However, such statements do not represent the official doctrine of the Church. The key, official doctrine of the Church is that Jesus is literally the son of God (i.e., this is not a symbolic or figurative expression), and Mary was a virgin before and after Christ's conception.
At the annunciation, Mary questioned the angel about how she could bear a child: "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" (Luke 1:34; the expression "know" in the Greek text is a euphemism for sexual relations). Nephi likewise described Mary as a virgin (1 Nephi 11:13-20), as did Alma1 (Alma 7:10).
You further claim that when you challenged LDS leadership on this, citing the Bible’s affirmation of Mary’s virginity, they responded that she was “a virgin to mortal man” but not to an immortal God. I respectfully submit that this portrayal does not align with official LDS teachings, and I’d like to clarify the actual doctrine.
- God as the Father of Spirits: Yes, Latter-day Saints believe that God the Father is the spiritual Father of all human spirits (Hebrews 12:9). This is a spiritual, not biological, relationship. Mary, like all of us, is a spirit child of God in this sense.
- The Conception of Jesus: Official LDS doctrine does not teach that God the Father had physical relations with Mary. The Book of Mormon explicitly states that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus by the power of the Holy Ghost: “And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.” (Alma 7:10). Similarly, 1 Nephi 11:18-20 describes Mary as “a virgin, most beautiful and fair” who bore a son “after the manner of the flesh” through divine means, not physical intercourse with God. The Bible concurs in Luke 1:35: “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.” LDS teachings affirm the virgin birth as a miraculous event, consistent with scripture.
- Misrepresentation and Anecdote: Your claim that “LDS teaches that their god had sex with her” appears to stem from a misunderstanding or an informal conversation rather than official doctrine. The explanation you attribute to unnamed “LDS leadership”—that Mary was a virgin to mortal men but not to an immortal God—is not found in the standard works (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price) or authoritative statements from the Church. Without specific details or verification, this anecdote lacks credibility and seems to misrepresent what the Church teaches.
In short, Latter-day Saints uphold the biblical account of the virgin birth. The notion of God physically engaging with Mary is not part of our doctrine and contradicts our scriptures. I invite you to consider these references and engage with what we actually believe, rather than a distorted version of our teachings.
Logical Fallacies in Your Rebuttal
Your critique employs several logical fallacies that undermine its persuasiveness and fail to engage with the substance of my arguments. Let me outline these respectfully:
- Straw Man Fallacy: You attack a misrepresentation of LDS beliefs—namely, that God had physical relations with Mary—rather than addressing our actual doctrine. By setting up this exaggerated and erroneous claim, you make it easier to dismiss LDS theology without tackling the real issues, such as the nature of God in Hosea 11:9b or the incarnation of Christ. A fair discussion requires engaging with what we truly teach, as outlined above.
- Ad Hominem Fallacy: Statements like “I don’t post comments with links to false teachings,” “LDS apologetics twist scripture and revise history to support their cultic beliefs,” and “Anyone who can accept that doctrine has been totally duped and LDS apologetics just keeps them brainwashed into their cult” dismiss my arguments by attacking their source rather than their merit. Labeling LDS beliefs as “false,” “cultic,” or “brainwashing” avoids substantive debate and resorts to name-calling. This sidesteps the theological and scriptural points I raised about Christ as God manifested in the flesh.
- Appeal to Anonymous Authority: Your reference to a conversation with unnamed “LDS leadership” lacks specificity—names, dates, or context—that would lend it credibility. Without verifiable evidence, this claim cannot be evaluated and appears as an attempt to bolster your argument with untestable hearsay.
- Genetic Fallacy: By suggesting that LDS beliefs are inherently invalid because they come from “Mormonism” (e.g., “Your link showed me nothing I haven’t seen before in my 50 years studying Mormonism after leaving the LDS”), you imply that their origin discredits them, regardless of their content. This overlooks the possibility that scripture and reason might support our perspective, as I’ve sought to demonstrate.
These fallacies weaken your rebuttal by shifting focus from reasoned analysis to misrepresentation and dismissal. I encourage a discussion grounded in scripture and logic, where we can explore our differences constructively.
Hosea 11:9b in Context and the Incarnation of Christ
Your original post cites Hosea 11:9b— “For I am God and not a man, the Holy One in your midst”—to argue that God was never a man, challenging the LDS belief that God the Father was once mortal and is now exalted. My comment asked how you reconcile this with New Testament passages stating that Christ, who is God, became a man (e.g., John 1:14, 1 Timothy 3:16). Let’s examine this exegetically and address the apparent tension.
- Context of Hosea 11:9b: Hosea 11 portrays God’s love for Israel despite their rebellion, culminating in a promise of mercy: “I will not execute my burning anger… for I am God and not a man” (Hosea 11:9, ESV). Here, God contrasts His divine attributes—steadfast mercy, holiness, and power—with human tendencies toward fickleness and wrath. The phrase “not a man” emphasizes His current divine nature, not a categorical denial that God could ever take on human form or have a mortal experience. It’s about God’s transcendence over human limitations in this moment of compassion.
- Christ as God Manifested in the Flesh: The New Testament clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is divine and became human: John 1:14: “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.”
- 1 Timothy 3:16: “He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit… taken up in glory.”
- Colossians 2:9: “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.” In traditional Christianity, the incarnation—God the Son taking on humanity—coexists with His divine nature via the hypostatic union. If Christ is God and became a man, your assertion that “God is not, nor ever was, a man” seems to conflict with this reality unless qualified.
- Traditional Reconciliation: You might argue, as in your initial reply, that the Trinity resolves this: God the Father remains a spirit, while God the Son became incarnate without altering the divine essence. Hosea 11:9b, then, applies to God’s immutable nature, not precluding the Son’s unique human experience. This hinges on Trinitarian distinctions, which I respect as your framework.
- LDS Reconciliation: From an LDS perspective, Hosea 11:9b highlights God’s exalted state, not a denial of past mortality. We believe God the Father may have been mortal in the distant past, progressing to divinity, much as Christ did (see Joseph Smith’s King Follett Discourse). Christ, divine as Jehovah, became mortal to redeem us, then resumed His glorified state (Doctrine and Covenants 93:11-17). Hosea’s declaration reflects God’s current transcendence— “not a man” in frailty—without negating a prior mortal phase. The incarnation of Christ supports this: if God the Son could become man, it’s plausible the Father followed a similar path eons ago.
- Bridging the Gap: Both views affirm Christ’s divinity and humanity but differ on God’s broader nature. Your interpretation sees Hosea as proof of eternal immutability; mine sees it as a statement of present divinity within eternal progression. The New Testament’s witness of Christ as God in the flesh challenges an absolute “never was a man” stance unless contextualized, which both our theologies attempt in distinct ways.
Additional Fallacies and a Call to Dialogue
Beyond the fallacies noted, your rebuttal oversimplifies complex theological issues. For instance, dismissing LDS apologetics as “twisting scripture” assumes malicious intent without evidence, ignoring how all traditions interpret scripture through their lenses. Your focus on a sensationalized claim (God and Mary) diverts attention from my core question about Christ’s incarnation, a tactic resembling a red herring.
I invite you to reconsider my actual arguments:
- The contextual meaning of Hosea 11:9b as God’s mercy, not a denial of mortality.
- The New Testament’s affirmation that Christ, as God, became man.
- The LDS view of eternal progression as consistent with Christ’s example.
Rather than dismissing these as “false teachings,” let’s explore them scripturally. I’m open to a respectful exchange that honors our shared love for God and His word, focusing on reason over rhetoric. What are your thoughts on John 1:14 in light of Hosea 11:9b? How do you see Christ’s humanity fitting with your claim? I look forward to your insights.
Update: Glenn E. Chatfield's Recent Response
Rebuttal to Glenn E. Chatfield’s Comment
What follows is the flow of discussion at Glenn E. Chatfield's The Anti-Mormon blogger post titled: God is NOT, nor ever was, A Man. My response to him (which he does not want to publish to his blogger post - and thus may cause confusion among those who may happen upon his content and seeing the discussion) addresses the typical attitude and behavior most critics of the LDS Faith (specifically, those who are apostates) engage in when their claims and assertions are scrutinized and challenged. They tend to become defensive, condescending, almost ridiculing and mocking. Shutting down any actual discussion. Also, the reader will see the screenshot of the actual discussion at the blog post and notice the missing commentary from this writer (which is included in this blog post).
Is it considerate to say that you are not interested in the truth and possibility of being wrong? I posted my response to your rebuttal and address it. I am not afraid of the truth. In fact, if it is adequately shown through sound and reasonable understanding and sufficient evidence, I am willing to admit I am wrong. Are you capable of saying the same thing?
It seems there appears to be an attitude and behavior that is more ego driven and prideful that is more arrogant than one of humility and willingness. It seems you come off as lacking any sense of humility.
I've shown respect in responding to you, attempting to correct and point out possible flaws in your arguments, and yet, it is consistently met with words of harshness, arrogance, and condescending attitude.
Additionally, it seems to do your readers a disservice of providing a response to my comment without your readers actually seeing my comments you are responding to. Almost as if you are attempting to gloat pridefully a way of showing how critics engage in typical ranting behaviors when challenged.
You are more than welcomed to come and discuss these issues. I won't delete your comments, nor will I use condescending loaded language and arguments that are riddled with logical fallacies.
Regardless - you do not have any real authority and understanding on the subject matter since you lack proper communication and respectful engagement.
His response to this:
Glenn E. Chatfield
It is YOU who is not interested in the truth about the LDS. I have not shown you disrespect, gave you no words of harshness or a condescending attitude. I just don't want to waste time with someone who denies the LDS is nothing but a cult built on a false prophet and doctrines built on lies. Your rebuttal was just claiming logic fallacies but if what I stated was true then there is no fallacy.
I never post comments which included false teaching or links to false teachings.
Again, I have studied the LDS for 50+ years and have seen all the LDS apologetics arguments. I KNOW I am not wrong about LDS teachings. Refusing to debate you is not about ego or pride, it's about not wasting time with someone who just wants to defend the LDS cult.
Mr. Chatfield,
Your recent comment—
“Mr. Berman, I am not going to have a dialogue with you because you are not interested in the truth of Mormonism. I have plenty of proof about the LDS god having sex with Mary. Just look on my index on the right side and see the link to articles on the topic. Take your LDS defense elsewhere—I’ve heard it all”
—reflects a stance that, while rooted in conviction, raises concerns about logical consistency, openness to discussion, and the strength of your authority on this topic. I offer the following response with respect and a desire for constructive dialogue, addressing three key aspects of your comment.
1. Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Authority
Your assertion that “I have plenty of proof” followed by a directive to “look on my index… to articles on the topic” suggests an appeal to authority—a logical fallacy where the validity of a claim is assumed based solely on the authority of external sources, without engaging directly with the evidence or counterarguments. While these articles may contain compelling points, deferring to them without discussion does not inherently validate your position. Truth in religious matters, such as the claim about the LDS god and Mary, often hinges on interpretation and context, both of which can vary across sources. By refusing to elaborate or address potential challenges, you leave your argument vulnerable to the critique that it relies on unexamined authority rather than reasoned analysis. A stronger approach would involve presenting your evidence directly and engaging with opposing views to demonstrate its robustness.
2. Observable Attitude and Behavior: Dismissiveness and Prejudgment
Your statement, “I am not going to have a dialogue with you because you are not interested in the truth of Mormonism,” coupled with “Take your LDS defense elsewhere—I’ve heard it all,” reveals a dismissive and confrontational attitude. This response prejudges my intentions, assuming a lack of interest in truth without evidence, and shuts down discussion before it can begin. The phrase “I’ve heard it all” further implies that any defense or alternative perspective is unworthy of consideration simply because it is familiar to you. Such behavior suggests a reluctance to have your views scrutinized, which comes across as arbitrarily dismissive. Openness to dialogue—even with those who disagree—signals confidence in one’s position, whereas this approach risks appearing defensive and closed-off, limiting the potential for mutual understanding.
3. Impact on Credibility and Authority: Diminished by Arbitrary Dismissiveness
The combination of refusing dialogue and relying on external sources without engagement continues to erode your credibility and authority on this subject. Credibility rests not just on what you know, but on your willingness to defend it through reasoned exchange. By dismissing discussion with an air of finality, you appear evasive, which may lead others to question the strength or depth of your understanding. Authority is bolstered by demonstrating a capacity to address challenges head-on, yet your arbitrary dismissiveness— “Take your LDS defense elsewhere”—suggests a lack of confidence in confronting counterarguments directly. This approach alienates those who might otherwise engage with your perspective, reducing its persuasive impact and casting doubt on your ability to represent the topic with nuance or fairness.
4. An Invitation to Constructive Engagement
I respectfully encourage you to reconsider this stance. Dialogue does not demand agreement, but it does offer an opportunity to refine and strengthen your position through scrutiny. If you believe strongly in your proof regarding the LDS god and Mary, presenting it openly and addressing counterpoints would only enhance your credibility. Arbitrary dismissiveness serves neither your argument nor the pursuit of truth; it deepens divisions rather than bridges them. I invite you to share your perspective directly—perhaps by summarizing the key evidence from your articles—and engage with any questions or challenges that arise. Such an approach would reflect both intellectual rigor and a genuine commitment to understanding, qualities that elevate authority far more than a reliance on external references alone.
In closing, while I respect your conviction, I urge you to reflect on how this dismissive tone and avoidance of discussion may weaken your influence. Truth, to resonate, must stand up to inquiry, not sidestep it. I remain open to a thoughtful exchange, should you choose to pursue one.
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