Andrew Soncrant is part of the Reformed Baptist Church Plant, Apologia Church of Utah. This Church and ministry appear to be engaged in toxic apologetics where they manipulate and use deceptive strategies to discredit the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This particular ministry appears to have an active YouTube channel where videos are posted of conversations, interactions, and brief "challenges" against the LDS Christian Faith. The following is my comment that has gone unresponsive to the apparent and blatant false claims made regarding the first article of faith.
1) Claim made: LDS article of Faith number one says "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost". Sounds good right? But the truth is that the LDS organization teaches their people to speak "christianese". They say the same words, but they have totally different meanings.
Response to Claim: The idea and belief that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches members to speak "Christianese" is a belief among the more recent evangelical apologists. This is a misnomer by the person speaking.
The first article of faith establishes scriptural truth that we accept and believe in who God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are. This is articulated in our understanding that they make up the Godhead - united in purpose and will regarding the plan of salvation. There is no "Christianese" or "mormonese" - except in an irrational and manipulative mindset and belief.
2) Claim made: "What we should first understand is that when they say God the Eternal Father, they don't mean that he has existed from Everlasting into Everlasting - like it says in Psalm 90."
Response to Claim: Psalm 90 is called the Prayer of Moses and the term Lord in Hebrew is Yahweh. The transliteration of this verse is that Moses is praying to Yahweh - who is Elohim (which has various meanings, one of them referring to royalty or plurality). Yahweh is Jesus Christ. So, what we should first understand is this: we need to properly interpret scripture from an Exegesis standpoint and not an Eisegesis Standpoint. It is Christ who is from everlasting to everlasting. This is what we accept and believe regarding the son. It is also what we accept and believe concerning the father. The term in Psalm 90 "everlasting to everlasting" in Hebrew is olam and means "long duration, antiquity, futurity" and also means something that is perpetual. To this, Latter-day Saints agree. Yahweh - Christ is perpetual, his existence is also of a long duration.
Also, Psalm 90 coincides with authoritative Jewish understanding of the eternal and pre-existence of things prior to creation. This includes Torah, Repentance, Israel, and God's throne and glory (Bereshit Rabbah 1):
"In the beginning of God's creating..." - Six things preceded the creation of the world; some of them were created and some of them were decided to be created. The Torah and the Throne of Glory were created. How do we know the Torah was? As it says (Proverbs 8:22): "God made me at the beginning of his way." How do we know the Throne of Glory was? As it says (Psalms 93:2): "Your throne is established as of old etc." The Patriarchs, Israel, the Temple, and the name of the Messiah were decided to be created. How do we know the Patriarchs were? As it says (Hosea 9:10): "Like grapes in the wilderness etc." How do we know Israel was? As it says (Psalms 74:2): "Remember your congregation, whom you purchased from old." How do we know the Temple was? As it says (Jeremiah 17:12): "Your throne of glory, on high from the beginning etc." How do we know the name of the Messiah was? As it says (Psalms 72:17): "May his name exist forever etc. [his name shall be Yinnon as long as the sun]." Rabbi Ahavah said in the name of Rabbi Ze'ira: Even repentance was, as it says (Psalms 90:2): "Before the mountains were birthed," and at the same time (Psalms 90:3), "You turned man to contrition etc." However, I do not know which was first--if the Torah preceded the Throne of Glory or the Throne of Glory preceded the Torah. Rabbi Abba Bar Cahana said: The Torah preceded the Throne of Glory, as it says (Proverbs 8:22): "God made me at the beginning of his way, the first of his works of old." This is before that of which it is written (Psalms 93:2): "Your throne is established as of old."
So, if you are going to call attention to the fact that we need to understand Psalm 90 - we need to understand it in proper context - not an eisegesis and flippant pedestrian way to disprove the first article of faith.
3) Claim made: "no, they believe that he was once a man like you, and I are. Someone who sinned, right, but then was obedient to the gospel ordinances and principles that was exalted into Godhood."
Response to claim: This statement is mere speculation and manipulation of what statements were made. Much of this comes from the couplet of Lorenzo Snow - "As man is, God once was, as God is, man may become". There is not much information concerning the details of God's mortal existence. The reality is - and the point that needs to be made - is that it does not matter. God is our Heavenly Father who sent His son to redeem us so that we are able to be (as the Apostle Paul said) Heirs and Joint heirs with Christ. (See this response)
4) Claim made: "When they say Jesus, they don't mean the eternal God who took on flesh and died on the cross for our sins. Instead, they mean the offspring of Heavenly Father and one of his goddess wives and the brother of lucifer."
Response: Again, a statement that is not only a strawman fallacy, but also mere speculative and irrational. Latter-day Saints actually do believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God who did come down and live a mortal life, suffered, died on the cross, was buried, and then rose the third day with a resurrected body of flesh and bone.
Also, what the individual is teaching here is something that is known as modalism. This doctrine specifically teaches that the persons of the Trinity are merely represented by three modes or aspects of the Divine Being. It denies any distinct or coexisting persons in the divine nature of the Godhead.
Concerning Christ as being the spirit brother of Lucifer - well.... hmmm let us see.... Scripture refers to Christ as the Morning Star. Scripture also refers to Lucifer as the Morning Star. Scripture calls Christ as a Lion. Scripture also says that Satan is also a Lion. Do we then conclude that Christ is Satan? No, we do not ever dare say such a thing because we understand that these symbolisms are referring to a contrast of two different aspects of the same symbolism. Christ is the morning star as he is the First of all things. Satan is the morning star in that he is a fallen being. Christ is the Lion of Judah whereas Satan is a lion roaring and devouring.
The fact of the matter is this: the speaker is settling his teaching on a well-known Sabellianism unorthodox teaching as a means to challenge and refute the LDS First Article of Faith.
5) Claim made: "They also deny the fact that the Holy Ghost is eternally God".
Response to the Claim: Again, this is mere speculation and faulty assumption devised as a means to deceive and mislead people. Here is a great article regarding the Holy Spirit:
6) Claim made: "This is a big issue if you do not have Jesus Christ, the Eternal God, is your sacrifice for your sins - you don't have an atonement that actually has any effect on you. That's why the organization says you need to make up those works yourself. You need to do x, y, and z in order to reach a level of exaltation in Godhood. It's not biblical. We must reject it. We must see the Christians for what it is and correct it for the truth."
Response to the claim: This is a very vague and ambiguous conclusion. What works are you referring to where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach that they need to replace the atonement with? Maybe provide some clarification here. As it is, sounds like you are attempting to shoot blindfolded from the hip without ever hitting the target. Again, deceptive, manipulative, and misleading statements.
As for the latter statement - yes, we need to correct what someone says and teachings for the sake of Truth. This means correcting your statements and showing how they are in error and the danger you are in for promoting and teaching such things. Are you willing to correct your statements? Are you willing to repent of your deception and manipulation of the teachings of the LDS Faith? Or are you merely another arrogant ignoramus blowhard illiterate scriptorian with pedestrian and flinstonian views that want to garner a following of blind faithful disciples?
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