Questioning Andrew Soncrant's Pedestrian Explanation of the First Article of Faith

 

 Andrew Soncrant is part of the Reformed Baptist Church Plant, Apologia Church of Utah. This Church and ministry appear to be engaged in toxic apologetics where they manipulate and use deceptive strategies to discredit the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This particular ministry appears to have an active YouTube channel where videos are posted of conversations, interactions, and brief "challenges" against the LDS Christian Faith. The following is my comment that has gone unresponsive to the apparent and blatant false claims made regarding the first article of faith.  

1) Claim made: LDS article of Faith number one says "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost". Sounds good right? But the truth is that the LDS organization teaches their people to speak "christianese". They say the same words, but they have totally different meanings.

Response to Claim: The idea and belief that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches members to speak "Christianese" is a belief among the more recent evangelical apologists. This is a misnomer by the person speaking.

The first article of faith establishes scriptural truth that we accept and believe in who God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are. This is articulated in our understanding that they make up the Godhead - united in purpose and will regarding the plan of salvation. There is no "Christianese" or "mormonese" - except in an irrational and manipulative mindset and belief. 

2) Claim made: "What we should first understand is that when they say God the Eternal Father, they don't mean that he has existed from Everlasting into Everlasting - like it says in Psalm 90."

Response to Claim: Psalm 90 is called the Prayer of Moses and the term Lord in Hebrew is Yahweh. The transliteration of this verse is that Moses is praying to Yahweh - who is Elohim (which has various meanings, one of them referring to royalty or plurality). Yahweh is Jesus Christ. So, what we should first understand is this: we need to properly interpret scripture from an Exegesis standpoint and not an Eisegesis Standpoint. It is Christ who is from everlasting to everlasting. This is what we accept and believe regarding the son. It is also what we accept and believe concerning the father. The term in Psalm 90 "everlasting to everlasting" in Hebrew is olam and means "long duration, antiquity, futurity" and also means something that is perpetual. To this, Latter-day Saints agree. Yahweh - Christ is perpetual, his existence is also of a long duration. 

Also, Psalm 90 coincides with authoritative Jewish understanding of the eternal and pre-existence of things prior to creation. This includes Torah, Repentance, Israel, and God's throne and glory (Bereshit Rabbah 1): 

"In the beginning of God's creating..." - Six things preceded the creation of the world; some of them were created and some of them were decided to be created. The Torah and the Throne of Glory were created. How do we know the Torah was? As it says (Proverbs 8:22): "God made me at the beginning of his way." How do we know the Throne of Glory was? As it says (Psalms 93:2): "Your throne is established as of old etc." The Patriarchs, Israel, the Temple, and the name of the Messiah were decided to be created. How do we know the Patriarchs were? As it says (Hosea 9:10): "Like grapes in the wilderness etc." How do we know Israel was? As it says (Psalms 74:2): "Remember your congregation, whom you purchased from old." How do we know the Temple was? As it says (Jeremiah 17:12): "Your throne of glory, on high from the beginning etc." How do we know the name of the Messiah was? As it says (Psalms 72:17): "May his name exist forever etc. [his name shall be Yinnon as long as the sun]." Rabbi Ahavah said in the name of Rabbi Ze'ira: Even repentance was, as it says (Psalms 90:2): "Before the mountains were birthed," and at the same time (Psalms 90:3), "You turned man to contrition etc." However, I do not know which was first--if the Torah preceded the Throne of Glory or the Throne of Glory preceded the Torah. Rabbi Abba Bar Cahana said: The Torah preceded the Throne of Glory, as it says (Proverbs 8:22): "God made me at the beginning of his way, the first of his works of old." This is before that of which it is written (Psalms 93:2): "Your throne is established as of old." 

So, if you are going to call attention to the fact that we need to understand Psalm 90 - we need to understand it in proper context - not an eisegesis and flippant pedestrian way to disprove the first article of faith. 

3) Claim made: "no, they believe that he was once a man like you, and I are. Someone who sinned, right, but then was obedient to the gospel ordinances and principles that was exalted into Godhood." 

Response to claim: This statement is mere speculation and manipulation of what statements were made. Much of this comes from the couplet of Lorenzo Snow - "As man is, God once was, as God is, man may become". There is not much information concerning the details of God's mortal existence. The reality is - and the point that needs to be made - is that it does not matter. God is our Heavenly Father who sent His son to redeem us so that we are able to be (as the Apostle Paul said) Heirs and Joint heirs with Christ. (See this response)

4) Claim made: "When they say Jesus, they don't mean the eternal God who took on flesh and died on the cross for our sins. Instead, they mean the offspring of Heavenly Father and one of his goddess wives and the brother of lucifer." 

Response: Again, a statement that is not only a strawman fallacy, but also mere speculative and irrational. Latter-day Saints actually do believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God who did come down and live a mortal life, suffered, died on the cross, was buried, and then rose the third day with a resurrected body of flesh and bone. 

Also, what the individual is teaching here is something that is known as modalism. This doctrine specifically teaches that the persons of the Trinity are merely represented by three modes or aspects of the Divine Being. It denies any distinct or coexisting persons in the divine nature of the Godhead. 

Concerning Christ as being the spirit brother of Lucifer - well.... hmmm let us see.... Scripture refers to Christ as the Morning Star. Scripture also refers to Lucifer as the Morning Star. Scripture calls Christ as a Lion. Scripture also says that Satan is also a Lion. Do we then conclude that Christ is Satan? No, we do not ever dare say such a thing because we understand that these symbolisms are referring to a contrast of two different aspects of the same symbolism. Christ is the morning star as he is the First of all things. Satan is the morning star in that he is a fallen being. Christ is the Lion of Judah whereas Satan is a lion roaring and devouring. 

The fact of the matter is this: the speaker is settling his teaching on a well-known Sabellianism unorthodox teaching as a means to challenge and refute the LDS First Article of Faith. 

5) Claim made: "They also deny the fact that the Holy Ghost is eternally God". 

Response to the Claim: Again, this is mere speculation and faulty assumption devised as a means to deceive and mislead people. Here is a great article regarding the Holy Spirit: 

6) Claim made: "This is a big issue if you do not have Jesus Christ, the Eternal God, is your sacrifice for your sins - you don't have an atonement that actually has any effect on you. That's why the organization says you need to make up those works yourself. You need to do x, y, and z in order to reach a level of exaltation in Godhood. It's not biblical. We must reject it. We must see the Christians for what it is and correct it for the truth." 

Response to the claim: This is a very vague and ambiguous conclusion. What works are you referring to where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach that they need to replace the atonement with? Maybe provide some clarification here. As it is, sounds like you are attempting to shoot blindfolded from the hip without ever hitting the target. Again, deceptive, manipulative, and misleading statements. 

As for the latter statement - yes, we need to correct what someone says and teachings for the sake of Truth. This means correcting your statements and showing how they are in error and the danger you are in for promoting and teaching such things. Are you willing to correct your statements? Are you willing to repent of your deception and manipulation of the teachings of the LDS Faith? Or are you merely another arrogant ignoramus blowhard illiterate scriptorian with pedestrian and flinstonian views that want to garner a following of blind faithful disciples?

Exploring the Trinity: Understanding the LDS Perspective and Alternative Models

Understanding the Trinity

The concept of the Trinity is a fundamental belief in mainstream Christian theology, stating that God is one being existing in three distinct persons: God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. This concept finds its roots in the early centuries of Christianity and was solidified in the Nicene Creed, a foundational document that affirmed the doctrine of the Trinity. The unity and relationship between God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are emphasized, highlighting their oneness in essence and purpose.

To further understand the nature of the Trinity, let's consider an analogy. Just as the three primary colors, red, blue, and yellow, combine to form a wide spectrum of colors, the three persons of the Trinity come together to reveal the fullness of God's nature. Each person of the Trinity is distinct in their role and function, yet they are inseparable and exist in perfect unity.

Throughout history, theologians and scholars have grappled with the mystery of the Trinity. While it may be challenging to fully comprehend, the belief in the Trinity serves to affirm the nature of God as both transcendent and immanent, existing beyond human understanding yet intimately involved in the world. It underscores the complexity and depth of God's being, inviting believers to explore the richness of the divine nature.

LDS Beliefs and the Trinity

In contrast to mainstream Christianity, the LDS faith rejects the traditional concept of the Trinity. Instead, they believe in the Godhead, which comprises separate and distinct individuals: God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. While the LDS perspective acknowledges the unity and purpose of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, it differs from the traditional understanding of the Trinity. Interestingly, some Mormon authorities have used the term "Trinity" to describe their belief, even though it deviates from the traditional understanding.

To gain a deeper understanding of the LDS perspective on the nature of God, let's consider an example. In the LDS Church, the Father is seen as the literal father of Jesus Christ and all humanity. This belief is based on the teachings of Joseph Smith, who claimed to have received revelations clarifying the nature of God and the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. These revelations form the basis for the distinct LDS perspective on the Godhead.

In Mormon theology, Jesus Christ is considered the firstborn spirit son of God and the Savior of the world. He is seen as the divine mediator between God the Father and humanity. The Holy Ghost, on the other hand, is viewed as a separate personage who serves as a guide and comforter to individuals.

Jesus and God the Father in LDS Theology

LDS theology holds the belief that Jesus is God the Father manifested in the flesh, reflecting the divine nature of Jesus. This understanding emphasizes the embodiment of deity and the physical nature of Jesus Christ. Although this belief may seem contradictory to the denial of God as an exalted man in LDS theology, it highlights the complexity and unique perspectives within LDS teachings. It's important to note that LDS teachings emphasize the physical separation between Jesus Christ and God the Father, affirming their distinct personhood.

To illustrate this belief, Mormons often refer to the biblical account of the baptism of Jesus. According to the Gospel of Matthew, when Jesus was baptized, a voice from heaven declared, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". Mormons interpret this event as a manifestation of God the Father and Jesus Christ as separate beings. This belief underscores the distinct personhood of Jesus and God the Father in LDS theology.

The physical embodiment of Jesus in LDS theology is seen as a manifestation of God's love and desire to relate to humanity in a tangible way. It is believed that Jesus experienced mortality to atone for the sins of humanity and provide a way for individuals to return to God. This understanding of Jesus as God in the flesh highlights the unique perspective of the LDS faith.

Scriptural Basis for LDS Beliefs

The LDS faith draws upon various scriptural sources to support their beliefs about the nature of God and the Trinity. The Book of Mormon, a sacred text in Mormonism, is considered by believers to be an additional testament of Jesus Christ.It contains numerous passages that emphasize the separate personages of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

For example, in the Book of Mormon, there is a verse that states, "And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen" (2 Nephi 31:21). This verse highlights the belief in the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as one God, while also emphasizing their separate personhood.

Furthermore, the Book of Mormon provides additional evidence against the idea that Christ and the Father are a single individual expressing himself in different modes. It clearly describes Jesus Christ and the Father as separate individuals, affirming their distinct personhood.

In addition to the Book of Mormon, other LDS scriptures, such as the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price, also provide teachings and insights into the nature of God and the Trinity according to the LDS perspective. These scriptures are considered by members of the LDS faith to be additional sources of divine revelation.

Early Mormon Beliefs and the Trinity

The beliefs of the early Mormons regarding the nature of God and the concept of the Trinity diverged from mainstream Christian teachings. In the early days of the LDS Church, Joseph Smith received revelations that challenged the traditional understanding of the Trinity and introduced new perspectives on the nature of God.

Early Mormon leaders and members believed in an embodied God, which was a departure from the prevailing view of God as a purely spiritual being. They viewed God as a physical being with a glorified, perfected body. This belief in an embodied God is rooted in the teachings and revelations of Joseph Smith.

Moreover, the LDS Church also taught the doctrine of deification, which holds that humans can become like God. This concept, often referred to as "theosis" or "divinization," was also taught in early Christianity but later diminished in prominence. The LDS belief in deification reflects similarities to early Christian teachings and highlights the distinct perspectives of the LDS faith.

It is crucial to note that early Mormon beliefs and teachings about the nature of God and the Trinity developed gradually over time. The understanding of these doctrines evolved as Joseph Smith received additional revelations and the LDS Church continued to grow and expand. The early Mormon beliefs laid the foundation for the unique perspectives on the Godhead that are central to the LDS faith today.

Alternative Models of the Trinity

The concept of the Trinity has been the subject of ongoing theological discourse and exploration. In addition to the traditional understanding of the Trinity, contemporary Christian theologians have been exploring alternative models that seek to deepen our understanding of the divine nature.

One such alternative model is the "social model of the Trinity." This model emphasizes the interconnectedness and mutual indwelling of the divine persons. It sees the Trinity as a community of love, where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist in a relationship of perfect unity and harmony.This perspective highlights the relational aspect of the Trinity and its implications for human relationships and society.

The social model of the Trinity aligns with some aspects of the LDS perspective on the Godhead. Both emphasize the unity and purpose of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, albeit in different ways. Some theologians, including LDS theologians, have found common ground with social trinitarianism, seeing it as a framework that complements their understanding of the Godhead.

While alternative models of the Trinity provide valuable insights and perspectives, it is important to recognize that they are still in the realm of theological exploration. The nature of the Trinity remains a mystery that goes beyond human comprehension. As Christians, it is essential to approach the concept of the Trinity with humility and reverence, recognizing that our understanding is limited and that there is room for diverse theological perspectives.

Coherence of LDS Beliefs

The coherence of LDS beliefs about the nature of God and the Trinity is a topic of discussion and debate. Critics often question the consistency and compatibility of LDS teachings with early Christian theology and philosophical frameworks.

One area of examination is the coherence between the teachings of Joseph Smith and the views of early Christian theologians, such as Augustine. Augustine held the belief that matter is inherently evil, while Joseph Smith taught that matter is eternal and can be divinized. Some argue that there is a tension between these perspectives, while others find coherence in the understanding that both Augustine and Joseph Smith were working within their respective cultural and theological contexts.

Moreover, the LDS belief in an embodied God has raised questions about the relationship between the physical and spiritual aspects of divinity. Critics argue that the LDS perspective contradicts the traditional understanding of God as a purely spiritual being. However, LDS theology asserts that God is both physical and spiritual, existing in a glorified, perfected state. This perspective emphasizes the importance of the physical realm and the embodiment of divine attributes.

As with any religious belief system, the coherence of LDS beliefs ultimately rests on individual interpretation and personal faith. The LDS faith provides a comprehensive framework for understanding the nature of God and the Trinity, which is consistent with the teachings and revelations received by Joseph Smith.

Similarities and Differences with Mainstream Christian Beliefs

While the LDS perspective on the Trinity differs from mainstream Christian beliefs, there are also significant similarities. Both share a belief in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as divine beings. However, the understanding of the Trinity and the nature of God diverge in important ways.

Mainstream Christian beliefs on the Trinity affirm the oneness of God in three persons. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are viewed as distinct, yet inseparable. The traditional understanding emphasizes the unity and simplicity of God, while acknowledging the mysterious nature of the Trinity.

In contrast, the LDS faith rejects the traditional concept of the Trinity and believes in the Godhead, comprising separate and distinct individuals. The LDS perspective views the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as separate beings with different roles and functions. This unique understanding of the Godhead sets the LDS faith apart from mainstream Christianity.

Despite these differences, it is important to recognize that the concept of the Trinity is a complex theological concept that has been the subject of ongoing discussion and debate within Christianity. The nature of God is a profound mystery that transcends human understanding. Christians of different traditions approach this mystery with humility and reverence, recognizing that diverse theological perspectives can contribute to a richer understanding of God's nature.

Contemporary Perspectives on the Trinity

Contemporary discussions and debates surrounding the nature of the Trinity continue to shape theological discourse. The exploration of alternative models and interpretations reflects the ongoing quest for a deeper understanding of the divine nature.

One notable alternative model is the social model of the Trinity. This perspective emphasizes the relational aspect of the Trinity, highlighting the interconnectedness and mutual indwelling of the divine persons. It sees the Trinity as a community of love and underscores the implications of this relationality for human relationships and society.

The social model of the Trinity has gained traction among some theologians and offers a fresh perspective on the divine nature. It integrates Christology, soteriology, and the concept of God, providing a practical foundation for Christian living. By emphasizing the communal nature of God, the social model of the Trinity invites believers to reflect the divine love and unity in their own relationships and interactions.

While the social model of the Trinity has its merits, it is just one of many contemporary perspectives being explored. The ongoing theological discourse surrounding the Trinity reflects the profound mystery and depth of the divine nature. It offers an opportunity for theologians and believers to engage in thoughtful dialogue, fostering greater understanding and appreciation for diverse theological perspectives.

Conclusion

In conclusion, understanding the nature of the Trinity and the LDS perspective requires careful exploration and consideration of theological beliefs and scriptural sources. While mainstream Christianity upholds the traditional concept of the Trinity, the LDS faith offers a unique perspective through the belief in the Godhead comprising separate and distinct individuals.

The LDS perspective on Jesus and God the Father highlights the belief in Jesus as God the Father manifested in the flesh, while affirming their physical separation. This understanding reflects the embodiment of deity and the distinct personhood of Jesus and God the Father in LDS theology.

Scriptural evidence from the Book of Mormon and other LDS scriptures supports the LDS perspective on the nature of God and the Trinity. These scriptures emphasize the unity and purpose of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, while highlighting their separate personages.

Early Mormon beliefs diverged from mainstream Christian teachings on the nature of God and the Trinity. They embraced the belief in an embodied God and the doctrine of deification, which reflects similarities to early Christian teachings.

Contemporary discussions on the Trinity explore alternative models, such as the social model of the Trinity. These perspectives provide valuable insights into the interconnectedness and relationality of the divine persons, fostering a deeper understanding of God's nature.

As Christians, it is important to approach the concept of the Trinity with humility and reverence, recognizing that our understanding is limited. The diversity of theological perspectives enriches our understanding of the divine mystery and encourages interfaith dialogue and mutual respect.

References:

1. Deseret News - Mormons and the Holy Trinity
2. FAIR - Mormonism and the Nature of God/Trinity
3. FAIR - Mormonism and the Nature of God/Early Beliefs
4. Interpreter Foundation - Notes on Mormonism and the Trinity